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	<title>Comments on: Convenience vs Immersion</title>
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	<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/</link>
	<description>a thoroughly mundane fellow's quest for adventure</description>
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		<title>By: JaneDoh</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126811</link>
		<dc:creator>JaneDoh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126811</guid>
		<description>I am not disagreeing with the &quot;simplifying&quot; of modern games, but I think some of you are conflating 2 things--&quot;immersiveness&quot; and first MMO love. There is no way to go back to being MMO naive and experiencing your first game. All the love you are giving UO and EQ I have also heard for Lineage, Anarchy Online, etc. Even WoW. Most people are looking to re-experience the total amazement and interest of that first game. This is something that can never be recaptured.

My other thought is that all the people that grew up playing games are now adults with jobs, families, and other real life timesinks. This is the crowd that is looking to &quot;accomplish&quot; something in the half an hour chunks of time they have to play, and there are a lot of them. I think more hardcore gamers will have to accept that they are a niche market and will be best served by niche games that have niche production values (good gameplay coupled with cheaper graphics, sounds, effects, etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not disagreeing with the &#8220;simplifying&#8221; of modern games, but I think some of you are conflating 2 things&#8211;&#8221;immersiveness&#8221; and first MMO love. There is no way to go back to being MMO naive and experiencing your first game. All the love you are giving UO and EQ I have also heard for Lineage, Anarchy Online, etc. Even WoW. Most people are looking to re-experience the total amazement and interest of that first game. This is something that can never be recaptured.</p>
<p>My other thought is that all the people that grew up playing games are now adults with jobs, families, and other real life timesinks. This is the crowd that is looking to &#8220;accomplish&#8221; something in the half an hour chunks of time they have to play, and there are a lot of them. I think more hardcore gamers will have to accept that they are a niche market and will be best served by niche games that have niche production values (good gameplay coupled with cheaper graphics, sounds, effects, etc).</p>
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		<title>By: urbanspinner</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126796</link>
		<dc:creator>urbanspinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126796</guid>
		<description>(Ruin your relationship? I don&#039;t remember that! I watched over your shoulder and thought it was pretty cool, since it was a visual recreation of the MUDs I played way back in the early 90s. It was Tribes that pissed me off, remember?) 

Just passing through, btw. Hope you&#039;re well!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Ruin your relationship? I don&#8217;t remember that! I watched over your shoulder and thought it was pretty cool, since it was a visual recreation of the MUDs I played way back in the early 90s. It was Tribes that pissed me off, remember?) </p>
<p>Just passing through, btw. Hope you&#8217;re well!</p>
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		<title>By: Elnia</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126779</link>
		<dc:creator>Elnia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126779</guid>
		<description>I was stuck by your phrase &quot;internal role playing&quot; because I never thought of it that way but it&#039;s an apt phrase. 

I have a post scheduled at PPI on &quot;Questing for Immersiveness in MMOs,&quot; too bad I stumbled over this post after I had already written mine. 

The one comment that I will make here is that I don&#039;t think most players want their MMOs to be immersive. To me, underlying all of this is the reality of the profit motive and human nature. Human beings are different. They want different things out of their games. And if one&#039;s goal is to make as much money as possible then one needs to appeal to widely divergent sets of interests. One of the things that has made WoW so successful is that it manages to do that without being totally bland. Yes, maybe it is bland compared to some others but it is not Peggle bland.

The fundamental fact of the matter is that one can make a super game with awesome immersiveness and most of the time it will go broke. There&#039;s a message there, though your internal role player may not want to hear it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was stuck by your phrase &#8220;internal role playing&#8221; because I never thought of it that way but it&#8217;s an apt phrase. </p>
<p>I have a post scheduled at PPI on &#8220;Questing for Immersiveness in MMOs,&#8221; too bad I stumbled over this post after I had already written mine. </p>
<p>The one comment that I will make here is that I don&#8217;t think most players want their MMOs to be immersive. To me, underlying all of this is the reality of the profit motive and human nature. Human beings are different. They want different things out of their games. And if one&#8217;s goal is to make as much money as possible then one needs to appeal to widely divergent sets of interests. One of the things that has made WoW so successful is that it manages to do that without being totally bland. Yes, maybe it is bland compared to some others but it is not Peggle bland.</p>
<p>The fundamental fact of the matter is that one can make a super game with awesome immersiveness and most of the time it will go broke. There&#8217;s a message there, though your internal role player may not want to hear it.</p>
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		<title>By: Rog</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126763</link>
		<dc:creator>Rog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126763</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s been long understood that most of the successful boardgames (Risk and Monopoly especially) break all of the rules that Parker Bros. / Hasbro maintain internally as necessary to publish a game.

The reality is, that most of what&#039;s been determined as good or bad gameplay is usually reactionary. Games are taken apart by reviewers and bloggers alike and popular theories are made, rather than accepting or rejecting the game as a whole. There&#039;s more than just the gameplay involved too, the biggest games have always been at the right place at the right time too.

And finally, we&#039;ve often been led to believe that X is good gameplay and Y is bad gameplay, because Y is hard / expensive to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been long understood that most of the successful boardgames (Risk and Monopoly especially) break all of the rules that Parker Bros. / Hasbro maintain internally as necessary to publish a game.</p>
<p>The reality is, that most of what&#8217;s been determined as good or bad gameplay is usually reactionary. Games are taken apart by reviewers and bloggers alike and popular theories are made, rather than accepting or rejecting the game as a whole. There&#8217;s more than just the gameplay involved too, the biggest games have always been at the right place at the right time too.</p>
<p>And finally, we&#8217;ve often been led to believe that X is good gameplay and Y is bad gameplay, because Y is hard / expensive to make.</p>
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		<title>By: /AFK &#8211; October 18 &#171; Bio Break</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126759</link>
		<dc:creator>/AFK &#8211; October 18 &#171; Bio Break</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 11:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126759</guid>
		<description>[...] Pete re: Immersion - &#8220;But a lot of what Fallen Earth does is â€˜wrongâ€™ by the standards players demand from modern games. And yet people who try it out tend to stick with it.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pete re: Immersion &#8211; &#8220;But a lot of what Fallen Earth does is â€˜wrongâ€™ by the standards players demand from modern games. And yet people who try it out tend to stick with it.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: gekido</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126723</link>
		<dc:creator>gekido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126723</guid>
		<description>My experience with Fallen Earth was basically like so:

1) the setting had me hooked from the beginning.  I have been waiting for a mad max / fallout style world that I could get into, explore and spend hours wandering the wasteland.

2) the intro tutorial to the game is awesome.  I think it was a perfect way of introducing the game, getting you familiar with how things work, and in general introducing you to the FE.

3) the realtime combat system is crucial - I watch people &#039;playing&#039; world of warcraft and other &#039;click / wait / see results&#039; types of games and just don&#039;t get it.  You can see that alot of wow players on the FE chat don&#039;t get the fact that combat in FE actually requires skill - that is, you can be beaten by a lower-level monster / character simply because you missed shooting at them, not because of some arbitrary dice roll behind the scenes decides that your character should win because you are higher level than them

4) the crafting - oh the crafting.  The realtime queue system, the harvesting materials etc - while in a fantasy or other type of game would feel like pointless grinding - in a post-apocalyptic world, these are essential, crucial elements that work perfectly in FE.  The joy of finally being able to craft myself that first pistol, or even little items of clothing to kit my character out is simply awesome.

FE rocks, see you on the wasteland ;}</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience with Fallen Earth was basically like so:</p>
<p>1) the setting had me hooked from the beginning.  I have been waiting for a mad max / fallout style world that I could get into, explore and spend hours wandering the wasteland.</p>
<p>2) the intro tutorial to the game is awesome.  I think it was a perfect way of introducing the game, getting you familiar with how things work, and in general introducing you to the FE.</p>
<p>3) the realtime combat system is crucial &#8211; I watch people &#8216;playing&#8217; world of warcraft and other &#8216;click / wait / see results&#8217; types of games and just don&#8217;t get it.  You can see that alot of wow players on the FE chat don&#8217;t get the fact that combat in FE actually requires skill &#8211; that is, you can be beaten by a lower-level monster / character simply because you missed shooting at them, not because of some arbitrary dice roll behind the scenes decides that your character should win because you are higher level than them</p>
<p>4) the crafting &#8211; oh the crafting.  The realtime queue system, the harvesting materials etc &#8211; while in a fantasy or other type of game would feel like pointless grinding &#8211; in a post-apocalyptic world, these are essential, crucial elements that work perfectly in FE.  The joy of finally being able to craft myself that first pistol, or even little items of clothing to kit my character out is simply awesome.</p>
<p>FE rocks, see you on the wasteland ;}</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Youâ€™re in Our World Now&#8221;: How Much Does Setting Affect MMO Enjoyment? - We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126688</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Youâ€™re in Our World Now&#8221;: How Much Does Setting Affect MMO Enjoyment? - We Fly Spitfires - MMORPG Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126688</guid>
		<description>[...] it like Ultima Online did when I was 16. Part of the glory of an online world is the feeling that the world itself does not owe you anything. Too often the entire world exists for no other reason than to facilitate the gamer to move through [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it like Ultima Online did when I was 16. Part of the glory of an online world is the feeling that the world itself does not owe you anything. Too often the entire world exists for no other reason than to facilitate the gamer to move through [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Longasc</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126680</link>
		<dc:creator>Longasc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126680</guid>
		<description>By the way, Mount &amp; Blade also offers a similar gameplay mode: No saving except you exit the game. There is no permadeath in this game, but losing parts of your gear and getting imprisoned, losing companion heroes and your whole army is really hard. People play less reckless in this game mode, but fight like berserks if they are cornered by superior enemy troops. One of the most intense moments was when my badly wounded (low hp) char and his equally battered warband of 27 was attacked by 112 northmen. My men were soon captured or killed, and I could not evade being dragged of my horse either while only 18 enemies were left.

The enemy Thane then offered me (and only me) to leave instead of taking me prisoner in recognition of my bravery. This felt great, almost like a total victory. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, Mount &amp; Blade also offers a similar gameplay mode: No saving except you exit the game. There is no permadeath in this game, but losing parts of your gear and getting imprisoned, losing companion heroes and your whole army is really hard. People play less reckless in this game mode, but fight like berserks if they are cornered by superior enemy troops. One of the most intense moments was when my badly wounded (low hp) char and his equally battered warband of 27 was attacked by 112 northmen. My men were soon captured or killed, and I could not evade being dragged of my horse either while only 18 enemies were left.</p>
<p>The enemy Thane then offered me (and only me) to leave instead of taking me prisoner in recognition of my bravery. This felt great, almost like a total victory. <img src='http://dragonchasers.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Professor Beej</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126671</link>
		<dc:creator>Professor Beej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126671</guid>
		<description>I am so intrigued by Fallen Earth.  I was one of those who, like you, became all but addicted to Ultima Online because of its immersion.  If Fallen Earth can recreate even a smidgen of that feeling, my next paycheck might lose 50 or so dollars to rekindle that kind of love.  

As much as I love WoW and other modern MMOs, none has come close to making me feel like I existed in a world as Ultima Online did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so intrigued by Fallen Earth.  I was one of those who, like you, became all but addicted to Ultima Online because of its immersion.  If Fallen Earth can recreate even a smidgen of that feeling, my next paycheck might lose 50 or so dollars to rekindle that kind of love.  </p>
<p>As much as I love WoW and other modern MMOs, none has come close to making me feel like I existed in a world as Ultima Online did.</p>
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		<title>By: Longasc</title>
		<link>http://dragonchasers.com/2009/10/11/convenience-vs-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-126669</link>
		<dc:creator>Longasc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2750#comment-126669</guid>
		<description>P.S.: Too busy playing LOTRO at the moment and the money is actually meant for Mirkwood, cannot play Fallen Earth at the moment. Keep me updated, I will join the game after you and all other fellow bloggers and twitterers have erected Longascville and prepared me a welcome buffet! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S.: Too busy playing LOTRO at the moment and the money is actually meant for Mirkwood, cannot play Fallen Earth at the moment. Keep me updated, I will join the game after you and all other fellow bloggers and twitterers have erected Longascville and prepared me a welcome buffet! <img src='http://dragonchasers.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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