Comments on: We now return you to your regularly scheduled ranting http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/ But what will you do when you catch one!? Fri, 25 May 2012 03:19:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Pete http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125956 Pete Sat, 22 Aug 2009 04:44:10 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125956 What I'm finding amusing is all the breathless gushing over the WoW expansion, in some cases from the very same people who were marching with pitchforks and torches to drive DIKU out of the village once and for all. I think the term "DIKU" is getting broader and broader as time passes, too. Now it seems any game with character levels seems to be called a DIKU-based game. And I don't really see that most new games *are* more of the same. As I said upthread, look at the titles coming down the pike: Fallen Earth, APB, Section 8, Cities XL, FF XIV, The Agency, DC Universe Online, Jumpgate Evolution. None of these are (as far as I can tell) DIKU-based games. SW:TOR seems like it is, and probably Stargate Worlds, and... honestly I can't think of any others. What I’m finding amusing is all the breathless gushing over the WoW expansion, in some cases from the very same people who were marching with pitchforks and torches to drive DIKU out of the village once and for all.

I think the term “DIKU” is getting broader and broader as time passes, too. Now it seems any game with character levels seems to be called a DIKU-based game.

And I don’t really see that most new games *are* more of the same. As I said upthread, look at the titles coming down the pike: Fallen Earth, APB, Section 8, Cities XL, FF XIV, The Agency, DC Universe Online, Jumpgate Evolution. None of these are (as far as I can tell) DIKU-based games. SW:TOR seems like it is, and probably Stargate Worlds, and… honestly I can’t think of any others.

]]> By: Tesh http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125952 Tesh Sat, 22 Aug 2009 04:10:03 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125952 I'm a strong proponent for getting away from the DIKU system. I will never advocate completely getting rid of it, though, since there *is* an audience. Ditto my monologues on monetization. If the most new games are just more of the same with a new dress, though, it's really not healthy for the genre on the whole. I'm glad that there are those who like Aion or Darkfall or whatever even though they aren't my type, but MMOs really can be more than WoW/EQ iterations. I lament the slow evolution process, not that there are those who are content with what exists. I’m a strong proponent for getting away from the DIKU system. I will never advocate completely getting rid of it, though, since there *is* an audience. Ditto my monologues on monetization. If the most new games are just more of the same with a new dress, though, it’s really not healthy for the genre on the whole. I’m glad that there are those who like Aion or Darkfall or whatever even though they aren’t my type, but MMOs really can be more than WoW/EQ iterations. I lament the slow evolution process, not that there are those who are content with what exists.

]]> By: SmakenDahed http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125894 SmakenDahed Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:06:02 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125894 Lots of comments, I didn't read them all so if I repeat what someone else said then that person is correct. :) I think you're seeing older gamers clamoring for a new genre rather than a new type of MMO - something sort of like a MMO, but not. You're right that MMORPGs are defined by a lot of the characteristics people are complaining about *eyes Scott*. FPS? Been there, done that. MMORPG? Been there, done that. RTS? Been there, done that. Sims? Been there, didn't do that. Most people just don't realize that is what they're looking for. Lots of comments, I didn’t read them all so if I repeat what someone else said then that person is correct. :)

I think you’re seeing older gamers clamoring for a new genre rather than a new type of MMO – something sort of like a MMO, but not. You’re right that MMORPGs are defined by a lot of the characteristics people are complaining about *eyes Scott*.

FPS? Been there, done that.
MMORPG? Been there, done that.
RTS? Been there, done that.
Sims? Been there, didn’t do that.

Most people just don’t realize that is what they’re looking for.

]]> By: Dust: the shape of things to come? « Welcome to Spinksville! http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125892 Dust: the shape of things to come? « Welcome to Spinksville! Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:44:16 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125892 [...] Pete@Dragonchasers has a perfectly formed rant at a comment I made, which was that this kind of vision made games like Aion and Champions Online look like tired retreads. This is not to say that they might not be great games — I played the Aion beta and liked it a lot. I’m not currently in the mindset for that kind of PvP but I certainly enjoyed similar setups in other games I’ve played, and I have no qualms about saying that if you’re looking for a gorgeous WoW-esque game with a PvP focus, give it a shot. CO simply disappoints me because I don’t think that the levelling/ questing game design really suits superheroes and I was hoping to see a bit more vision in the design (I especially think it’s important for superheroes to be tied in deeply to the city where they live) — but there’s no reason for it not to be a perfectly fun game. Although I am puzzled that I haven’t read many beta reports where people were getting more excited about it, there’s usually a bit more buzz than this. [...] [...] Pete@Dragonchasers has a perfectly formed rant at a comment I made, which was that this kind of vision made games like Aion and Champions Online look like tired retreads. This is not to say that they might not be great games — I played the Aion beta and liked it a lot. I’m not currently in the mindset for that kind of PvP but I certainly enjoyed similar setups in other games I’ve played, and I have no qualms about saying that if you’re looking for a gorgeous WoW-esque game with a PvP focus, give it a shot. CO simply disappoints me because I don’t think that the levelling/ questing game design really suits superheroes and I was hoping to see a bit more vision in the design (I especially think it’s important for superheroes to be tied in deeply to the city where they live) — but there’s no reason for it not to be a perfectly fun game. Although I am puzzled that I haven’t read many beta reports where people were getting more excited about it, there’s usually a bit more buzz than this. [...]

]]> By: Pete http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125882 Pete Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:48:36 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125882 @Spinks -- I'm not here to defend Champions Online, and saying it's a tired rehash because it's so similar to CoH is a much different criticism than the offhand "WoW in Tights" remark, because you could run the two games side by side, take a casual look, and point out things that are so similar that one might think NCSoft has the basis for a lawsuit. And I haven't played CO to a high enough level to really evaluate it one way or another. But just to set the record straight, Champions Online doesn't have classes. But WoW vs CO? A couple of evenings of play and I can easily give you this list of reasons CO isn't WoW in Tights: WoW has 2 factions, CO has 1 WoW is fantasy, CO is superhero WoW has distinct classes, CO has mix & match powers WoW has distinct races, CO let's you essentially create a 'race' WoW has a (mostly) contiguous world, CO has instances & 1 'server' WoW has very limited character customization, CO has an elaborate one WoW has gear that effects your character's look, CO doesn't WoW has traditional MMO skills (cooldown times, 1 button press attack), CO has a mix of auto-attacks, 1 button press attacks, charge-up skills, and charge-down skills WoW sticks to ground based combat, CO has aerial combat They don't feel at all similar to play. You and two friends definitely could choose to create three characters that fit into the 'holy trinity' playstyle... you could make a Champion that is essentially a tank, one that's essentially a healer, and one that is essentially DPS, but that's *you* choosing to play the game in the same old way. The game mechanics (from what I've seen after only a few evenings) offer a much wider range of possibilities. I could go one and on. Aside from the fact that both games are MMORPGs and have levels, there's very little similar between the two games. It's a BS dismissal. @Spinks — I’m not here to defend Champions Online, and saying it’s a tired rehash because it’s so similar to CoH is a much different criticism than the offhand “WoW in Tights” remark, because you could run the two games side by side, take a casual look, and point out things that are so similar that one might think NCSoft has the basis for a lawsuit. And I haven’t played CO to a high enough level to really evaluate it one way or another.

But just to set the record straight, Champions Online doesn’t have classes.

But WoW vs CO? A couple of evenings of play and I can easily give you this list of reasons CO isn’t WoW in Tights:

WoW has 2 factions, CO has 1
WoW is fantasy, CO is superhero
WoW has distinct classes, CO has mix & match powers
WoW has distinct races, CO let’s you essentially create a ‘race’
WoW has a (mostly) contiguous world, CO has instances & 1 ‘server’
WoW has very limited character customization, CO has an elaborate one
WoW has gear that effects your character’s look, CO doesn’t
WoW has traditional MMO skills (cooldown times, 1 button press attack), CO has a mix of auto-attacks, 1 button press attacks, charge-up skills, and charge-down skills
WoW sticks to ground based combat, CO has aerial combat

They don’t feel at all similar to play. You and two friends definitely could choose to create three characters that fit into the ‘holy trinity’ playstyle… you could make a Champion that is essentially a tank, one that’s essentially a healer, and one that is essentially DPS, but that’s *you* choosing to play the game in the same old way. The game mechanics (from what I’ve seen after only a few evenings) offer a much wider range of possibilities.
I could go one and on. Aside from the fact that both games are MMORPGs and have levels, there’s very little similar between the two games. It’s a BS dismissal.

]]> By: Spinks http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125881 Spinks Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:43:16 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125881 Champions doesn't suck because it's WoW in tights (although I do think that levels and classes don't really work great for a superhero game, they weren't designed for it, and I was hoping to see a new take on the genre), but it's so similar to CoH that 'tired rehash' isn't completely unjustified. Happy to listen to evidence as to why that's not the case though! :) Champions doesn’t suck because it’s WoW in tights (although I do think that levels and classes don’t really work great for a superhero game, they weren’t designed for it, and I was hoping to see a new take on the genre), but it’s so similar to CoH that ‘tired rehash’ isn’t completely unjustified. Happy to listen to evidence as to why that’s not the case though! :)

]]> By: Professor Beej http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125869 Professor Beej Thu, 20 Aug 2009 01:47:22 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125869 MMO burnout does happen. To an extent, we're all snarky gamers (we're writers, after all!) and our feelings and current moods affect our hobbies. It's unfair to developers who want to base their games on "player feedback" because that feedback is so horribly skewed that only the most vocal minority gets the game they want to play while the rest of the people only become vocal when there is something they actively don't like. Devs can't please everyone, so they should make the game *they* want to play, and if it's good enough to pass their own QA standards, it has to be good enough for public consumption. It's worked for authors for centuries. MMO burnout does happen. To an extent, we’re all snarky gamers (we’re writers, after all!) and our feelings and current moods affect our hobbies. It’s unfair to developers who want to base their games on “player feedback” because that feedback is so horribly skewed that only the most vocal minority gets the game they want to play while the rest of the people only become vocal when there is something they actively don’t like. Devs can’t please everyone, so they should make the game *they* want to play, and if it’s good enough to pass their own QA standards, it has to be good enough for public consumption. It’s worked for authors for centuries.

]]> By: Chappo http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125867 Chappo Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:30:43 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125867 Innovation wouldn't hurt an MMO as long as its done right, but I think too many games nowadays try to put a unique spin on something and come out worse off, rather then changing a few smaller mechanics but making sure everything works and provides a lot of fun. Innovation wouldn’t hurt an MMO as long as its done right, but I think too many games nowadays try to put a unique spin on something and come out worse off, rather then changing a few smaller mechanics but making sure everything works and provides a lot of fun.

]]> By: Rog http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125865 Rog Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:57:27 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125865 @Longasc: I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. Not every MMORPG needs to be in the Diku / EQ / WoW genre. Up until the lull right before WoW, there seemed to be a lot more variety in MMO development. Most of those games died before seeing release, because well, it was a crazy field to get into (Note Rob Pardo's oft-comments that if they really knew what it would be like, they wouldn't have made WoW). Anyway, point is, it's nice to see something that isn't the same-old, same-old. I do agree with this post too tho, I don't see why people bother going through so much effort to rant about game types they just don't seem to like. I'm not much of a sports game fan, but I don't recall ever feeling the need to trash Madden or Fifa. @Longasc: I’m going to have to agree with you on this one. Not every MMORPG needs to be in the Diku / EQ / WoW genre.

Up until the lull right before WoW, there seemed to be a lot more variety in MMO development. Most of those games died before seeing release, because well, it was a crazy field to get into (Note Rob Pardo’s oft-comments that if they really knew what it would be like, they wouldn’t have made WoW).

Anyway, point is, it’s nice to see something that isn’t the same-old, same-old.

I do agree with this post too tho, I don’t see why people bother going through so much effort to rant about game types they just don’t seem to like. I’m not much of a sports game fan, but I don’t recall ever feeling the need to trash Madden or Fifa.

]]> By: Pete http://dragonchasers.com/2009/08/19/we-now-return-you-to-your-regularly-scheduled-ranting/#comment-125860 Pete Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:57:55 +0000 http://dragonchasers.com/?p=2414#comment-125860 @Scott -- "But it has the big world and questing that was in the parenthetical list" I never said "Here is a list of things that can *only* be found in an MMORPG." I was making a list of common traits of MMORPGS (or at least, what I see as common traits -- trying to form some kind of definition-space for what an MMORPG, as opposed to an MMO, is). "I don’t know that I’ve heard anyone demand a DIKU developer to change their game to non-DIKU, if that’s what you’re getting at? " I have. Well at least that's how I interpret "Champions sucks because it's just WOW in tights." Maybe I'm interpreting wrong. @Longasc (sorry, got called to a meeting before I could reply to you). I've been playing online games for a long time. One of my favorite games was Ultima Online, which certainly isn't DIKU or 'holy trinity' or anything of that nature. Look, lest I'm starting to wander off-message, I'm not saying "All MMORPGs have to stay exactly as they are today." I'm saying "I'm sick of people hating on a new game that *chooses* to use familiar game systems." eg: Champions Online sucks because its WOW in tights, or Dust makes Aion look old and tired because CCP is more forward thinking than NCSoft. And in the latter case, I'm not even disagreeing that CCP is more forward thinking than NCSoft in announcing Dust. But that doesn't make Aion old and tired -- it's a beautiful game that uses very familiar game systems. *CLEARLY* the focus was on making the game super pretty, giving players wings... it's all about the look & feel, not about the game systems. That's a decision they made. Mind you, I'm not going to play it, but I'm not saying its crap just because it doesn't innovate, and I'm sure it'll do well for the company. @Scott — “But it has the big world and questing that was in the parenthetical list”

I never said “Here is a list of things that can *only* be found in an MMORPG.” I was making a list of common traits of MMORPGS (or at least, what I see as common traits — trying to form some kind of definition-space for what an MMORPG, as opposed to an MMO, is).

“I don’t know that I’ve heard anyone demand a DIKU developer to change their game to non-DIKU, if that’s what you’re getting at? ”

I have. Well at least that’s how I interpret “Champions sucks because it’s just WOW in tights.” Maybe I’m interpreting wrong.

@Longasc (sorry, got called to a meeting before I could reply to you). I’ve been playing online games for a long time. One of my favorite games was Ultima Online, which certainly isn’t DIKU or ‘holy trinity’ or anything of that nature.

Look, lest I’m starting to wander off-message, I’m not saying “All MMORPGs have to stay exactly as they are today.” I’m saying “I’m sick of people hating on a new game that *chooses* to use familiar game systems.”

eg: Champions Online sucks because its WOW in tights, or Dust makes Aion look old and tired because CCP is more forward thinking than NCSoft.

And in the latter case, I’m not even disagreeing that CCP is more forward thinking than NCSoft in announcing Dust. But that doesn’t make Aion old and tired — it’s a beautiful game that uses very familiar game systems. *CLEARLY* the focus was on making the game super pretty, giving players wings… it’s all about the look & feel, not about the game systems. That’s a decision they made.

Mind you, I’m not going to play it, but I’m not saying its crap just because it doesn’t innovate, and I’m sure it’ll do well for the company.

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