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OK so I’ve tried to leave the negative attitude at the door, but the pressure’s building up inside of me and I’m going to blow my top if I don’t rant soon.

So here goes!!!

Why can’t people just accept MMORPGs as a defined genre and stop trying to change them?

You don’t see FPS players complaining because the newest FPS has lots of guns and a targeting reticule. You don’t see driving game fans bitch because they can’t get out of their in-game cars and walk around. You don’t see sports game afficionados requesting an option to turn down the gravity in their games.

But MMORPG devs…they can’t catch a break. A new game comes out and people complain about some or all of the following:

  • The game has (too many) quests
  • The game has too much grinding [though grinding is almost never defined but seems to boil down to "there were moments I wasn't riveted by what I was doing"]
  • The characters have levels or skills that require too much time to attain
  • The game world is too large and requires too much travel
  • The game world is too small and doesn’t feel immersive
  • The characters have the same old boring stats
  • There’s no player skill because success of actions depend on character stats, not player hand-to-eye coordination
  • The game is too shallow
  • The game is too complex & I don’t want to read all those scary words that tell me how to play

The list goes on and on and on, but many of the things people complain about are exactly the aspects that make these games MMORPGs (questing, stats, a big world to explore, stat-based actions).

May I not-so-humbly suggest that the people who are so tired with the staple aspects of MMORPGs…. STOP PLAYING THEM! There’re a ton of different game genres out there to play. If you’re sick of questing and exploring and planning out character progressions… go play a different kind of game. Play an online shooter, or one of the new MMORTS-type games. Dig out Planetside and play that. Get involved with one of the browser-based empire-building games. Jump into Burnout: Paradise and have a hoot driving around with your buddies.

Go somewhere, but just, please, stop peeing in our pool, because there are literally millions of gamers who like MMORPGs the way they are.

This rant was triggered by someone talking about Dust, the new console-based FPS announced by CCP. The comment said something like “Wow, this really makes Aion and Champions Online look like tired old retreads.”

WTF??? So a new *shooter* makes a couple of MMORPGs look old and tired? That’s like saying “My new BMW sure makes our living room couch look old and tired.” How are the two even remotely related, aside from being things you sit in or on? Dust and Aion are both games, and that’s about where their similarities end. Dust is a player-skill based shooter played on a gaming console, and Aion is a MMORPG played on a PC. They could hardly be less similar, so I see no value in comparing them.

MMORPG burnout does happen. Have the class to recognize it for what it is, and go play something else for a while, rather than miserably sticking around MMORPGs crapping all over everything that comes along.



Comments:
32
  • A rant I completely agree with! *cheers* Who would have thought. ;)

  • hah, no it isn’t the fact it’s a shooter that makes the other games look tired. It’s the fact that it’s going to interact with EVE in a way that strengthens the MMO connection. So corps in EVE will be able to hire groups of player mercs in Dust to support their commercial and military goals. And some players will be playing FPS and others will be playing EVE (which probably doesn’t fit a lot of your typical MMO points, even though I think most people would agree that it was an MMO). I just think that’s a tremendously exciting thing to do.

    To me, one of the big things with MMOs is the buffet approach. There are lots and lots of different things to do, so you can follow your own preferences and inclinations. Don’t want to fight monsters? Maybe you can build an economic empire instead.

    But inevitably, some of the minigames get developed more fully than others. I just think it’s an awesome concept to spin off the FPS-friendly parts of EVE, let them interface neatly with the resource management/ economic game, and see what happens. It also raises the future prospect that I (who love standard MMOs) could play alongside my husband (who loves FPS games) and do something cooperatively.

    I find that very exciting and novel.

  • You’re buying into the hype, in my opinion. You can feel free to say “I told you so” when your vision comes to fruition. :)

    Here’s my vision (all speculation):

    There will be EVE on the PC, an MMO (and whether it is an MMORPG is up for debate..I think it stands with 1 leg in MMORPG space and 1 leg in MMO-Simulation space)

    There will be Dust, a FPS on the console that’ll support 64 players (or fewer) in a match.

    On some meta-level, actions in one will impact the other. But when you’re playing Dust, you’re going to be running around shooting guns and killing other players… it’ll be a shooter experience and plenty of people playing won’t even be aware of this weird “EVE” game that those PC nerds play.

    BTW, I specifically used “MMORPG” in my post, because there’s a ton of different kinds of MMOs — MMORPGs, MMOFPS, MMORTS, MMO-Browser games… all different genres, I think. The only common theme being that a a Massive number of players play them Online. :)

  • You may be right, but it’s the vision that I was reacting to :) I do think it’d be cool to have player generated quests, if it could be done in an immersive way that didn’t involve giant dicks or whatever :)

  • Just to be clear, hearing you say “I told you so” would be a small price to pay for playing a game that follows that vision.

    This thread might be of interest.

  • Not every MMO has quests as a method of advancement. EQ didn’t. EVE, UO and AC don’t have levels, and EVE’s skills don’t require the player do anything to advance them. Since there’s such a broad range of games included in the MMO umbrella, I think it’s perfectly valid to say that you like Game A’s feature set but don’t like Game B’s, though both may be MMOs. Is it right to tell that person to quit MMOs because Game B doesn’t fit their style?

    As for Dust 514, I’m not a killer and I don’t like playing online games with trashtalking children, so FPSs don’t interest me. If those frigates trading shots at the end of the teaser video have pilots, though, count me in!

  • I have to agree with Spinks on this. DESPITE the fact that Dust is a console FPS, which has NOTHING to do with the “thinking person’s game” of EVE on the PC doesn’t meant that Dust is a JUST and FPS that can be divided from the MMO genre. The fact that there’s interplay between the two different game types means that CCP is REALLY thinking outside the box.

    I can see in the statement ““Wow, this really makes Aion and Champions Online look like tired old retreads.” that it’s not necessarily about whether it’s an FPS or an MMO, both, or neither. CCP is currently known as the “EVE Online MMO Company”. THEY — not the bohemoths of Blizzard, EA, Sony or Microsoft — decided to not make another traditional high fantasy or sci-fi, level based, XP and loot driven MMO, but to branch their own IP off into a totally different direction, but also to keep it integrated with the original game so that there’s interplay. CCP has always been on the leading edge of concepts (supposedly there’s an API in the world which will allow for game management to be built into other apps, like mobile phones or web sites), and now that they’ve skipped beyond an interative offering (EVE Online II,for example), it shows that larger companies like Sony, Cryptic, NCSoft and Blizzard — who have had the chance and resources to do something really specactular in the past — have opted to just keep their eyes on the same path that they’ve walked all these years. Essentially, they dropped the ball in being leaders of innovation, and CCP is running with it.

    A lot of people bemoan that there’s no innovation, just iteration, in the MMO genere, and I think that your quoted sentence was an (admittedly lame) attempt to distill that sentiment into a soundbite.

  • I’ll rant about MMORPGs all I want, thanks, but since the topic here is actually Dust 514 I’ll just go on record and say I am very excited about the *idea* of Dust 514. Whether the reality of it comes anywhere near matching what I’m hoping for remains to be seen.

    I’d love to have *something* to do with the EVE universe, but I just can’t manage to get myself even the least bit interested in playing EVE itself.

    I look at something like Global Agenday and think “fun, but I seriously doubt I’d pay a sub for that.” Rather than doing what Cryptic and Funcom are doing — making the same MMO for both platforms — CCP is making an entirely new experience (and one that can likely skip the need for monthly subs in favor of regular DLC “expansions”) but one that interfaces with a PC-only MMOG.

    If it’s strategic enough, and not just a Halo/Unreal arena fragfest, you might be surprised just how many Dust 514 players will end up giving a damn about the EVE connection. How many EVE corps will care though? I suspect Dust players will need to be mercenaries that corps hire out, assuming that level of cross-platform interaction will be built into Dust.

    This is, in my opinion, a great way to take an two existing concepts — EVE itself, and persistent war games (shooters and RTS) — and combine the results over both separate games. To me, that’s an innovative strike in a different direction than what everyone else has been looking at with the console MMO concept.

  • @Tipa, every rule can be proven by its exceptions.

    Yes, there’s EVE (and it’s really arguable that it isn’t an MMORPG). Then there’s every other traditional MMORPG. Just because *you* are sick of traditional MMORPGs, it doesn’t mean they should go away, and that’s the vibe I’ve been getting lately. [EDIT: I'm not getting this vibe from you, mind... you did opt to go play something else rather than bashing on new games for being exactly what they always claimed they were.]

    @Scopique: “A lot of people bemoan that there’s no innovation, just iteration”

    Those are exactly the people who she get the F out! :) Not everyone *wants* innovation in the MMORPG space. I don’t want twitchy combat or insta-travel.

    I’ve seen a beloved genre (the single player RPG) get decimated by the raucous cries for innovation. You have to go to a handheld for a good turn-based RPG these days.

    I don’t want to see the end of skill/level based characters and spells and not having to use my hand-to-eye coordination to get things done.

    In short, I much MUCH *MUCH* prefer for Sony to be working on Everquest Next rather than a console shooter that every so often sends packets of data to the EQ2 servers.

  • @Scott “but since the topic here is actually Dust 514″

    Actually that wasn’t the intended topic. I’m experiencing the Ysh effect.

    I could just as easily used the “Champions Online sucks because it is just WOW in Tights” example to make my point.

    But read the thread I linked to..its a translation of an interview with one of the CCP top dogs. Basically Dust sounds a lot like Sony/Zipper’s MAG.

  • I often complain about traits common to most MMOs. It’s because I see potential in MMOs that can’t be found elsewhere, and MMO developers reject that potential every year.

    But I have been trying to withhold my objections more and more, because I don’t want to rain on others’ parade.

  • Let me try to phrase my feelings less rantily…

    To me, an MMORPG is like a play. I don’t need or even want to dump the trappings: the stage, the curtain, the orchestra, the lights… the content of each play is different enough that I enjoy it on its own terms.

    In the meantime, other people want to change MMORPGs into movies… ditch the stage, add a moving camera, digital effects… innovate!

    Now I like movies, but we already have movies. I don’t need my plays turning into movies…

  • The list goes on and on and on, but many of the things people complain about are exactly the aspects that make these games MMORPGs (questing, stats, a big world to explore, stat-based actions).

    Other than “stat-based actions” why is that list what makes a MMORPG? Mercenaries 2 has them all, and it’s not an RPG, and certainly not massively multiplayer. Fallout 3 has them. Etc.

    Funny, I always thought what “made” them MMORPGs was that they were RPGs ran on servers capable of hosting a “massive” amount of players…

    It doesn’t have to be DIKU to be an MMORPG. UO proved that originally, old-school SWG showed it somewhere in the middle and EVE continues to prove it today. (Never mind that I consider EVE to be an MMORTSRPG…) I could be wrong (it seems I usually am wrong here) but it seems like the anti-DIKU ranting might be your real source of aggravation. I’m one of the anti-DIKU screamers, but because I want something different, not because I want all DIKU to vanish from the face of the Earth. Back in the single-player RPG days, all the devs came up with their own RPG systems and it was fun learning each one. Even within certain series like Ultima, each game had different systems from the previous one. Playing Ultima was nothing like playing a Final Fantasy and nothing like playing a Fallout, etc. These days though, practically any MMORPG we pick up is DIKU. If you’ve played one, you’ve essentially played them all, the only difference is aesthetics and the little surface nuances that make us individually prefer one over another.

  • I’m going to attempt to bring the comments back on track to the original topic, because it’s a question I find more interesting. While I haven’t evocated it with as much passion as Mr. Pete has, I’ve found myself wondering the same thing on a number of occasions — why is there so often so much hate evinced for some of the tenets of the MMORPG genre — the things that, certainly in my mind, define the genre.

    Rather than go for an STFU approach, though, I am going to try to put up what I think might be an answer. I think it’s the amount of time we spend in an MMO, and more importantly, the amount of unbroken time. Now, I know I’m probably not the typical case, but the amount of time I’ve spent in world of warcraft and city of heroes over the past five years easily dwarfs the total amount of time I’ve spent in all otehr game combined. And by far and large, I’ve been doing variations of the same half dozen different things almost that entire time. They are: 1.) Completing one of four different types of quests, 2.) Fighting and killing monsters that are mostly variations of monsters I’ve already seen using the same key rotation I’ve been using most of the time I’ve been playing, and 3.) gathering mats & building my crafting schools 4.) playing the auction house.

    So the thing is, as soon as I step into any other MMO, even though those things are the very things I love about MMO’s, doing those exact same things is, of course, going to feel repetitive. IT’s not that we don’t love the genre — it’s that many of us have already spent so much unbroken time in the genre, it’s hard to not look at the next slight variation and feel somewhat disappointed.

    I think there’s one other thing important to point out. No other game genre regurely has you playing for so many uninterrupted hours as your typical mmo. Think about it. The most hardcore FPS fans that play Halo all day, do so in 20 minute bursts, with time spent at a lobby in between matches. So the time is broken up. Racing games — you compete in a race, then you go back to the lobby, tweak your cars or pick another one, then play again. Fighting games — play a match, select characters, play another match. Just about every game genre I can think about delivers it’s entertainment in digestable chunks with clear opportunities for you to break away. Only the MMO genre asks you to play.. and play.. and play some more.. until the point that most MMO’s these days warn you when you’ve played for an hour.. or two.. or three.

    I’ve myself wondered why the hate for the genre’s staples, and I’ve decided it’s easier to burn out on an MMO than any other genre. And because of that, the call for somethign different seems much greater than it does for other genres.

    that’s my theory, anyway, and I”m sticking too it.

    Great blog topic, btw.

    Dusty, aka Dlangar
    http://ofcourseillplayit.com

  • [Crossed posted. Dlangar got caught in the spam filters]

    You One can make a noise for something different without dumping all over what’s here now. Just because a new game isn’t what you one wants it to be, it doesn’t mean that new game is crap. [Edits to emphasize I'm not directing that at anyone in particular.]

    Y’know, anyone with a few spare minutes can pull apart a post and adamantly refuse to see the message.

    Mercs 2 isn’t an MMORPG because a) it doesn’t meet the MMO part, and 2) it’s based on player skill rather than character stats. Makes it massive, make it online, and make the combat stat-based, enhance character progression, and it would BE an MMORPG. As you say, it already has quests and exploration.

    And if you did all that, someone would say “This sucks, it’s just like that piece of shit Tabula Rasa.”

    I don’t think its anti-DIKU that bugs me. I loved UO and I enjoyed Tablua Rasa. I don’t want everything to be DIKU. But I don’t want everything to change, either.

    If you have a better, succinct definition of what makes an MMO an MMORPG, I’d be happy to hear it.

  • @Dlangar — I agree with the burnout thing… that goes back to my original post. If you’re burned out on MMORPGs, though (and I get that way, for sure) why not step away from them rather than getting angry and disappointed that the next title coming down the pike uses the (generally) same game systems?

    I guess to a certain point, it’s expectations. When a developer says “Our MMORPG breaks new ground and innovates. You’ve never played anything like it!” and it turns out being a DIKU-based game, sure.. flame away!! But when they don’t make a fuss about the game being innovative…you can pretty much assume that any changes are going to be iterative. So either accept that and play it, or disagree with it and don’t buy it, but don’t start flaming the developer because they’re making exactly the game they planned to make.’

    Y’know?

  • You know, it’s kinda like I posted at http://www.cedarstreet.net/2009/08/use-of-term-suck.html. I’ll agree that non-stop bitching about YAHFMMO (Yet Another High Fantasy MMO) is pointless, like shouting into a canyon, because there’s an audience for EVERYTHING. If you make it, they WILL come…maybe not in WoW numbers, but still. I really wish people would stop looking for things to complain about in these games, and start looking for all the things that they really like.

    Still, what about the people who DO want twitch-based MMOs, or MMOs without levels? Are their desires any less valid then your desire to maintain the current state of play? These people should get the game they want, too. I agree that they don’t need to shit all over OTHER games to do it, but that’s the (unfortunate) geek psyche at work for ya.

  • I think you should mention what you deem to be the very foundations of a MMORPG.
    Basically, EverQuest 1+2, World of Warcraft, the DikuMUD style? Maybe add LOTRO for quest driven gameplay?

    Levels, the Trinity, gear based progression – this does not make MMORPGs what they are. This is just the contemporary and by now very old-fashioned formula of MMOs. Dlangar pointed it already out, this is going to bore and burn out people very quickly. Been there, done that, basically.

    You have noticed it, there are a lot of people waiting for the next big thing in MMO gaming. Sometimes the little bit of innovation is the by now very popular F2P with micro transactions scheme.

    The classic style MMO is already firm in the hands of a few MMORPGs. But as even shooters evolved from Wolfenstein 3D to Far Cry and discovered things like mouse control and the 3rd dimension over time, I am sure the in general more complex MMO genre can and will evolve even more.

  • @Scopique – “Still, what about the people who DO want twitch-based MMOs, or MMOs without levels? Are their desires any less valid then your desire to maintain the current state of play? These people should get the game they want, too. I agree that they don’t need to shit all over OTHER games to do it, but that’s the (unfortunate) geek psyche at work for ya.”

    Yes, they should absolutely get what they want, and in a perfect world I guess they would. But games that came close to that kind of thing: Planetfall, the first MMOFPS, Tabula Rasa with it’s active aiming. Spellborn with it’s very twitchy combat… do these people support those games? None of these titles did well… it may be that they were otherwise flawed, or it may be that there just aren’t enough people in that camp, outside the tiny fraction of gamers who are bloggers, that want that kind of gameplay.

    FFIV will be an interesting experiment.

  • @Pete – Good point.

    What is it about WoW, EQ2, LotRO and other current MMOs that really draws the people, especially over the shooter games, or games with wildly different premises? After all these comments, I’m starting to think that your rant is really an affirmation that the majority of MMOers are STILL interested in the status quo :D

    Your point is solid: if titles which were really out in left field didn’t fare so well, maybe people just don’t WANT games to be all that different. Hell, people are stoked about Diablo III and Starcraft II. Aside from some minor tweaks and graphics updates, there’s nothing new.

    Re: burnout. I think that for people who have played WoW for years, say, and hear about a new game, there’s conflicting emotions. On one hand, it’s something new that will give them an experience they haven’t had since they started playing WoW, which is the learning curve and that new MMO smell. On the other hand, they realize that they’ve put YEARS into the WoW model. When they find that this new, shiny MMO isn’t ALL that different then what they’re playing, they don’t see the point in switching (I have proof in a friend who plays WoW just because he always has). But they’re STILL jonesing for a new experience, better graphics, a new world. But then again, if they have to start at the beginning in a world that’s really, really similiar to WoW mechanics wise, they might decide that it’s just not worth it. Their anger, then is because they thought they might have had a promising NEW experience, but it was just a rebranded OLD experience.

  • Mercs 2 isn’t an MMORPG because… I know, I said it wasn’t. But it has the big world and questing that was in the parenthetical list (not the bullet point list). Just making an analogy, which is why I included Fallout 3. GTA4 too for that matter. Just not RPGs, except Fallout.

    I don’t want everything to be DIKU. But I don’t want everything to change, either. I don’t know that I’ve heard anyone demand a DIKU developer to change their game to non-DIKU, if that’s what you’re getting at? I’m not doing that. Hell, I’ve chosen LOTRO as my One Main DIKU MMO for Life, and I don’t want it to stray from that. But am I sick and tired of every.single.MMORPG coming down the pike to be Yet Another DIKU MMORPG? Absolutely. I’ve been through the FPS genre getting stuck in a rut and only recently managing to start climb out of it. I’ve been through the RTS genre’s rut and they’re still stuck in it. With DIKU ruling the roost in MMORPGs, it’s getting into a massive (pun intended) rut itself and I personally feel *THAT* is why we burnout so fast. We take a break from our main MMO and tour others hoping for that Magical First Time feeling again. It doesn’t work for real-life romance, and it isn’t going to work for MMORPGs either, but we keep doing it like MMO lemmings.

    As I said, I appreciated all the different RPG systems back in the single-player days. There’s no difference under the hood with MMORPGs though, and that just causes me (and I suspect others) to bore, burnout, and leave all the new MMORPGs faster than they would have otherwise. Or something like that.

  • I Support this rant to the fullest! Not only because I agree, but also because of your wonderful “BMW/Couch” comparison!

  • @Scott — “But it has the big world and questing that was in the parenthetical list”

    I never said “Here is a list of things that can *only* be found in an MMORPG.” I was making a list of common traits of MMORPGS (or at least, what I see as common traits — trying to form some kind of definition-space for what an MMORPG, as opposed to an MMO, is).

    “I don’t know that I’ve heard anyone demand a DIKU developer to change their game to non-DIKU, if that’s what you’re getting at? ”

    I have. Well at least that’s how I interpret “Champions sucks because it’s just WOW in tights.” Maybe I’m interpreting wrong.

    @Longasc (sorry, got called to a meeting before I could reply to you). I’ve been playing online games for a long time. One of my favorite games was Ultima Online, which certainly isn’t DIKU or ‘holy trinity’ or anything of that nature.

    Look, lest I’m starting to wander off-message, I’m not saying “All MMORPGs have to stay exactly as they are today.” I’m saying “I’m sick of people hating on a new game that *chooses* to use familiar game systems.”

    eg: Champions Online sucks because its WOW in tights, or Dust makes Aion look old and tired because CCP is more forward thinking than NCSoft.

    And in the latter case, I’m not even disagreeing that CCP is more forward thinking than NCSoft in announcing Dust. But that doesn’t make Aion old and tired — it’s a beautiful game that uses very familiar game systems. *CLEARLY* the focus was on making the game super pretty, giving players wings… it’s all about the look & feel, not about the game systems. That’s a decision they made.

    Mind you, I’m not going to play it, but I’m not saying its crap just because it doesn’t innovate, and I’m sure it’ll do well for the company.

  • @Longasc: I’m going to have to agree with you on this one. Not every MMORPG needs to be in the Diku / EQ / WoW genre.

    Up until the lull right before WoW, there seemed to be a lot more variety in MMO development. Most of those games died before seeing release, because well, it was a crazy field to get into (Note Rob Pardo’s oft-comments that if they really knew what it would be like, they wouldn’t have made WoW).

    Anyway, point is, it’s nice to see something that isn’t the same-old, same-old.

    I do agree with this post too tho, I don’t see why people bother going through so much effort to rant about game types they just don’t seem to like. I’m not much of a sports game fan, but I don’t recall ever feeling the need to trash Madden or Fifa.

  • Innovation wouldn’t hurt an MMO as long as its done right, but I think too many games nowadays try to put a unique spin on something and come out worse off, rather then changing a few smaller mechanics but making sure everything works and provides a lot of fun.

  • MMO burnout does happen. To an extent, we’re all snarky gamers (we’re writers, after all!) and our feelings and current moods affect our hobbies. It’s unfair to developers who want to base their games on “player feedback” because that feedback is so horribly skewed that only the most vocal minority gets the game they want to play while the rest of the people only become vocal when there is something they actively don’t like. Devs can’t please everyone, so they should make the game *they* want to play, and if it’s good enough to pass their own QA standards, it has to be good enough for public consumption. It’s worked for authors for centuries.

  • Champions doesn’t suck because it’s WoW in tights (although I do think that levels and classes don’t really work great for a superhero game, they weren’t designed for it, and I was hoping to see a new take on the genre), but it’s so similar to CoH that ‘tired rehash’ isn’t completely unjustified. Happy to listen to evidence as to why that’s not the case though! :)

  • @Spinks — I’m not here to defend Champions Online, and saying it’s a tired rehash because it’s so similar to CoH is a much different criticism than the offhand “WoW in Tights” remark, because you could run the two games side by side, take a casual look, and point out things that are so similar that one might think NCSoft has the basis for a lawsuit. And I haven’t played CO to a high enough level to really evaluate it one way or another.

    But just to set the record straight, Champions Online doesn’t have classes.

    But WoW vs CO? A couple of evenings of play and I can easily give you this list of reasons CO isn’t WoW in Tights:

    WoW has 2 factions, CO has 1
    WoW is fantasy, CO is superhero
    WoW has distinct classes, CO has mix & match powers
    WoW has distinct races, CO let’s you essentially create a ‘race’
    WoW has a (mostly) contiguous world, CO has instances & 1 ‘server’
    WoW has very limited character customization, CO has an elaborate one
    WoW has gear that effects your character’s look, CO doesn’t
    WoW has traditional MMO skills (cooldown times, 1 button press attack), CO has a mix of auto-attacks, 1 button press attacks, charge-up skills, and charge-down skills
    WoW sticks to ground based combat, CO has aerial combat

    They don’t feel at all similar to play. You and two friends definitely could choose to create three characters that fit into the ‘holy trinity’ playstyle… you could make a Champion that is essentially a tank, one that’s essentially a healer, and one that is essentially DPS, but that’s *you* choosing to play the game in the same old way. The game mechanics (from what I’ve seen after only a few evenings) offer a much wider range of possibilities.
    I could go one and on. Aside from the fact that both games are MMORPGs and have levels, there’s very little similar between the two games. It’s a BS dismissal.

  • [...] Pete@Dragonchasers has a perfectly formed rant at a comment I made, which was that this kind of vision made games like Aion and Champions Online look like tired retreads. This is not to say that they might not be great games — I played the Aion beta and liked it a lot. I’m not currently in the mindset for that kind of PvP but I certainly enjoyed similar setups in other games I’ve played, and I have no qualms about saying that if you’re looking for a gorgeous WoW-esque game with a PvP focus, give it a shot. CO simply disappoints me because I don’t think that the levelling/ questing game design really suits superheroes and I was hoping to see a bit more vision in the design (I especially think it’s important for superheroes to be tied in deeply to the city where they live) — but there’s no reason for it not to be a perfectly fun game. Although I am puzzled that I haven’t read many beta reports where people were getting more excited about it, there’s usually a bit more buzz than this. [...]

  • Lots of comments, I didn’t read them all so if I repeat what someone else said then that person is correct. :)

    I think you’re seeing older gamers clamoring for a new genre rather than a new type of MMO – something sort of like a MMO, but not. You’re right that MMORPGs are defined by a lot of the characteristics people are complaining about *eyes Scott*.

    FPS? Been there, done that.
    MMORPG? Been there, done that.
    RTS? Been there, done that.
    Sims? Been there, didn’t do that.

    Most people just don’t realize that is what they’re looking for.

  • I’m a strong proponent for getting away from the DIKU system. I will never advocate completely getting rid of it, though, since there *is* an audience. Ditto my monologues on monetization. If the most new games are just more of the same with a new dress, though, it’s really not healthy for the genre on the whole. I’m glad that there are those who like Aion or Darkfall or whatever even though they aren’t my type, but MMOs really can be more than WoW/EQ iterations. I lament the slow evolution process, not that there are those who are content with what exists.

  • What I’m finding amusing is all the breathless gushing over the WoW expansion, in some cases from the very same people who were marching with pitchforks and torches to drive DIKU out of the village once and for all.

    I think the term “DIKU” is getting broader and broader as time passes, too. Now it seems any game with character levels seems to be called a DIKU-based game.

    And I don’t really see that most new games *are* more of the same. As I said upthread, look at the titles coming down the pike: Fallen Earth, APB, Section 8, Cities XL, FF XIV, The Agency, DC Universe Online, Jumpgate Evolution. None of these are (as far as I can tell) DIKU-based games. SW:TOR seems like it is, and probably Stargate Worlds, and… honestly I can’t think of any others.